Forum - DDraceNetwork

I cringe everytime I see deens broadcast about "DDNet Steam Greenlight". Like... we can't just be happy that Teeworlds finally got released on Steam 1!!! week ago?

hannibal wrote:I cringe everytime I see deens broadcast about "DDNet Steam Greenlight". Like... we can't just be happy that Teeworlds finally got released on Steam 1!!! week ago?

Some people aren't like these that stop at half of the way

hannibal wrote:I feel like we are a part of the Teeworlds community

DD has become so dominant to the point where you should consider it reversed. The Teeworlds community is part of DD community.

hannibal wrote:I cringe everytime I see deens broadcast about "DDNet Steam Greenlight". Like... we can't just be happy that Teeworlds finally got released on Steam 1!!! week ago?

You aren't supporting your argument as to why you're against DD going for Steam release. Why would you cringe about this? We're all happy about it. DD community can be happier if it gets released on Steam.

For example, look at this post by Netherland: https://www.teeworlds.com/forum/viewtop ... 32#p115532

However, it is fully build upon Teeworlds. It is exactly the same game.

New players won't enjoy playing DDRace, because they suck hard at it, so it's not even useless to post it on steam, it will very likely even scare away genuine new players.

You can't start with DDrace, too hard for new players to learn how the game works.

These lines are reasoning he gives and they are not even supporting his argument at all. There are assumptions that 1. new players won't suck at any new game and 2. it will scare new players.

Rest of the supporting arguments by others against DD Steam release in teeworlds.com are weak or non-existant, including yours.

Just in case you want to attack my reasoning, I posted in other places, try to argue against one of my reasons, which is:

The DDNet client is far better developed than the vanilla client.

To expand, this is a justification for the DD client to release and I'm not necessarily pushing for DD mod to spread, though it probably will. My point is irrelevant to the DD mod. Currently, there is a debate on teeworlds.com on how the game desperately needs a 0.7 update. This is the attitude over there. This game was released before some players' births, yet can't even get a 1.0 version going, and are debating over a 0.7 release. DD is much closer to a version 0.7. It's simply a better client in every way, if not the best. This would mean that I am for DD Steam release over the vanilla client Steam release.

Anyways, is it possible to get DD try for another green light, clean slate votes? This time, don't announce it on the teeworlds.com or in the DD client news, but only announce it on the ddnet.org forums.

Without DD, Teeworlds probably would have died couple years ago in North America, but Broken was the one who single handedly kept it alive in NA. Now there is a decent FNG and ctf5 scene in NA because of DD. When Broken's Inspire servers were gone, even the almighty ctf5 scene in NA dwindled.

Pathos wrote: Anyways, is it possible to get DD try for another green light, clean slate votes? This time, don't announce it on the teeworlds.com or in the DD client news, but only announce it on the ddnet.org forums.

There are maximum 150 or 200 (approximate) people looking often enough in this forum to see such a thing. I probably don't need to tell you that this wouldn't be enough.

We should compare our results with Teeworlds' ones. Maybe it's not as bad as we think, I guess every game gets a lot of "No" votes.

Pathos wrote:

hannibal wrote:I feel like we are a part of the Teeworlds community

DD has become so dominant to the point where you should consider it reversed. The Teeworlds community is part of DD community.

hannibal wrote:I cringe everytime I see deens broadcast about "DDNet Steam Greenlight". Like... we can't just be happy that Teeworlds finally got released on Steam 1!!! week ago?

You aren't supporting your argument as to why you're against DD going for Steam release. Why would you cringe about this? We're all happy about it. DD community can be happier if it gets released on Steam.

For example, look at this post by Netherland: https://www.teeworlds.com/forum/viewtop ... 32#p115532

However, it is fully build upon Teeworlds. It is exactly the same game.

New players won't enjoy playing DDRace, because they suck hard at it, so it's not even useless to post it on steam, it will very likely even scare away genuine new players.

You can't start with DDrace, too hard for new players to learn how the game works.

These lines are reasoning he gives and they are not even supporting his argument at all. There are assumptions that 1. new players won't suck at any new game and 2. it will scare new players.

Rest of the supporting arguments by others against DD Steam release in teeworlds.com are weak or non-existant, including yours.

Just in case you want to attack my reasoning, I posted in other places, try to argue against one of my reasons, which is:

The DDNet client is far better developed than the vanilla client.

To expand, this is a justification for the DD client to release and I'm not necessarily pushing for DD mod to spread, though it probably will. My point is irrelevant to the DD mod. Currently, there is a debate on teeworlds.com on how the game desperately needs a 0.7 update. This is the attitude over there. This game was released before some players' births, yet can't even get a 1.0 version going, and are debating over a 0.7 release. DD is much closer to a version 0.7. It's simply a better client in every way, if not the best. This would mean that I am for DD Steam release over the vanilla client Steam release.

Anyways, is it possible to get DD try for another green light, clean slate votes? This time, don't announce it on the teeworlds.com or in the DD client news, but only announce it on the ddnet.org forums.

Without DD, Teeworlds probably would have died couple years ago in North America, but Broken was the one who single handedly kept it alive in NA. Now there is a decent FNG and ctf5 scene in NA because of DD. When Broken's Inspire servers were gone, even the almighty ctf5 scene in NA dwindled.

My argument is the poor timing and the absurdity of releasing the same game on Steam twice. Two weeks ago, no one was takling about DDNet on Steam, now suddenly it's "the much better idea"? What's happening now is simply an attempt to use the momentum of the vanilla release. And to use that momentum not even a week after the initial release, while we are the more popular community anyways, feels unfair to me. Vanilla players have been looking forward to the Steam release for a long time now, to revive their mods. We don't need that, our mod is alive, plus many of the new vanilla players will come to us after a while, even if they're "Steam-players who just want to launch and play". And if they don't, they don't enjoy the game, fair enough. I, like Netherland, believe that CTF and DM are good places for a first impression of Teeworlds, better than a novice DDRace server.

While I don't know much about it, I think what you're saying is true: the DDNet client is better than the vanilla client. But that should have been the discussion in the first place, the vanilla client is already up there now.

This is my last contribution to this thread. I don't know much about Steam politics or Teeworlds development (I don't even have Steam), what I share here is just a general feeling about the server broadcasts that started right after the long awaited Vanilla steam release and how this felt like "bandwagon-jumping" to me.

hannibal wrote:My argument is the poor timing and the absurdity of releasing the same game on Steam twice. Two weeks ago, no one was takling about DDNet on Steam, now suddenly it's "the much better idea"? What's happening now is simply an attempt to use the momentum of the vanilla release. And to use that momentum not even a week after the initial release, while we are the more popular community anyways, feels unfair to me. Vanilla players have been looking forward to the Steam release for a long time now, to revive their mods. We don't need that, our mod is alive, plus many of the new vanilla players will come to us after a while, even if they're "Steam-players who just want to launch and play". And if they don't, they don't enjoy the game, fair enough. I, like Netherland, believe that CTF and DM are good places for a first impression of Teeworlds, better than a novice DDRace server.

While I don't know much about it, I think what you're saying is true: the DDNet client is better than the vanilla client. But that should have been the discussion in the first place, the vanilla client is already up there now.

This is my last contribution to this thread. I don't know much about Steam politics or Teeworlds development (I don't even have Steam), what I share here is just a general feeling about the server broadcasts that started right after the long awaited Vanilla steam release and how this felt like "bandwagon-jumping" to me.

After releasing TW, releasing DD can act as a bigger net to catch more players into the Teeworlds-world. You're viewing this pessimistically, viewing DD as utilizing TW's release, but it is bigger net to catch more players, benefiting the entire TW ecosystem. It is certainly not a bandwagon simply because both DD mod and client are dominant. If DD was released first then vanilla client was released, that would be a bandwagon, but it would still benefit all of TW communities.

I've been looking forward to revival of vanilla, but that is still missing my point with your mentioning of "our mod is alive" because as I've said before, my argument does not lie in the mod, but in the client and its development, including the dev teams of both clients. I don't want to repeat this.

DDNet is the most used client, by far. I use DD client and I only like vanilla and play vanilla. Here is a sample of votes:

DD client being better than vanilla client being brought up in the first place? Far more than half of all the posts in teeworlds.com (my guess is more than 75%) is on problems with the vanilla client. I've mentioned this numerous times on that forum. I brought this up numerous times before green light, again after green light, and after Steam release.

Your last contribution to this thread still made no good supporting arguments on why you're against Steam release of DD client besides your bandwagon reason, similar to Netherland and your liking to his reasoning.

hi_leute_gll wrote:There are maximum 150 or 200 (approximate) people looking often enough in this forum to see such a thing. I probably don't need to tell you that this wouldn't be enough.

Better to try, because vanilla client is bad and is a bad representation of TW and we all know it. How many are enough then?

Fifi wrote:We should compare our results with Teeworlds' ones. Maybe it's not as bad as we think, I guess every game gets a lot of "No" votes.

Does anyone have numbers on Vanilla client green light?

Just see the definition of the mod and the game:

Teeworlds: Teeworlds is a free online multiplayer game, available for all major operating systems. Battle with up to 16 players in a variety of game modes, including Team Deathmatch and Capture The Flag. You can even design your own maps!


DDrace:
DDraceNetwork (DDNet) is an actively maintained version of DDRace, a Teeworlds modification with a unique cooperative gameplay. Help each other play through custom maps with up to 64 players, compete against the best in international tournaments, design your own maps, or run your own server. The official servers are located in Germany, USA, Canada, Russia, China, Chile, Brazil, South Africa and Iran. All ranks made on official servers are available worldwide and you can collect points!

let me quote what deen explained in TWF Forum:

Ich wurde in den letzten 2 Jahren sehr oft gefragt DDNet auf Steam Greenlight zu stellen. Anfangs war ich dagegen, da ich Steam selber nicht nutze und keinen großen Sinn darin gesehen habe. Anfang Juni habe ich mich entschieden DDNet doch auf Steam Greenlight zu versuchen, war aber dann 1 Woche im Urlaub. Als ich zurück kam, war Teeworlds plötzlich in Greenlight und auch schon akzeptiert. Meine Idee war dann zu warten bis Teeworlds releast wird und dann nach einiger Zeit, falls es sinnvoll ist, DDNet auch auf Steam Greenlight zu versuchen. Es gab direkt beim Teeworlds-Steam-Release viele Kommentare dass Leute lieber DDNet auf Steam sehen würden, sie haben sogar Anleitungen gemacht wie man auf Steam Teeworlds mit DDNet ersetzen kann. Solche Hacks gehen aber kaputt sobald Updates kommen, und bei DDNet kommen die häufig, siehe zB das von heute: http://ddnet.org/downloads/

Es wäre eine Alternative gewesen DDNet als eine Modifikation im Teeworlds-Steam-Workshop zu veröffentlichen. Leider wollen die Teeworlds-Entwickler aber keine Mods unterstützen und somit wird das nichts für uns und auch für andere Mods. DDNet auf Steam würde übrigens gerne Modifikationen (von DDNet wie auch von TW selbst, falls es geht, kenne mich da noch nicht aus) im Workshop akzeptieren. Viele gute Ideen in DDNet stammen von anderen Leuten und ich schätze deren Arbeit und Mods.

Andererseits sehe ich DDNet nicht mehr nur als eine Teeworlds-Modifikation. Ich denke wir haben da mehr ein Spiel im Spiel, und ich finde es schade dass dadurch nur so wenige DDNet finden, und zwar diejenigen die lang genug bei Teeworlds bleiben um zu merken wie man die Filter deaktiviert und sich für Mods interessieren (hat bei mir ein paar Jahre gedauert).

I can try to poorly translate it for non-german people:

Many people asked me during these 2 years for suggesting DDNet to Steam Greenlight. Initially, I was against it, because I don't use Steam and saw no point in doing it. At the beginning of June I decided to try posting DDNet on Steam Greenlight, but then I was 1 week on my holiday. I came back and Teeworlds was already Greenlit, accepted. So I had the idea to wait till TW is released and then, if it makes any sense, try to suggest DDNet to Steam Greenlight too. There were many comments to Teeworlds-Steam-Release that people would like to see DDNet instead, they even did a Tutorial about how to play on Steam with DDNet client, how to swap clients. But such tricks are broken whenever updates appear, what happens very often.

It could be an alternative to publish DDNet as a Modification in Teeworlds-Steam-Workshop. Sadly, TW developers don't want to support modifications. DDNet on Steam would accept modifications in Workshop (from DDNet and TW, if it's possible, I don't know much about it). Many good DDNet ideas came from other people and I appreciate their work and Mods.

On the other hand, DDNet is for me no more just a Teeworlds Mod. I think we have here rather a game in a game and it's sad that not so many people can find DDNet and it are only people playing long enough to know how to disable Filters and are interested in Mods (what took me one year).

Fifi wrote:We should compare our results with Teeworlds' ones. Maybe it's not as bad as we think, I guess every game gets a lot of "No" votes.

I've seen the numbers and Teeworlds did much better, but it's not up to me to publish them.

Instead here's an update on DDNet in Steam Greenlight: