[suggestion] Serverside dummies or should I merge iDDRace to DDNet?

[shahan]

Ohi all,
I'm here from [iPod] Clan, that maintains iDDRace project (iddrace.ipod-clan.com).

Actually, I'm interested if you want to see dummies in DDNet on the server, like it done in iDDRace. I know that DDNet client already has dummy feature, so you can use it anywhere. Please, write you opinion.

Some information about dummies in iDDRace:
Dummy - is inactive bot. In iDDRace it was coded firstly for training and fun. Now it used for map testing and alone races. You can use speacial chat commands and teleport dummy to you, change poses between you and dummy, control dummy, and make it to copy all you movements. In iDDRace to call dummy you need to type /d or /dummy in chat. Then dummy will enter the game with you name but with prefix [D].

What advantages do I see?
+ iDDRace will back and stay always up-to-dated
+ You don't need to stress your connection with second client. (in DDNet client dummy counts as a connected player too, so it eats twice more traffic).
+ NO LAGS. Really, your dummy will live on the server, so it doesn't depend on your ping and PC mood
+ You don't need to update your client.

It's not difficult for me to merge iDDRace to DDNet, but I'd prefer to know your opinion before doing anything.

Thanks,
Shahan

======= UPDATE ========
If you don't know how it works in iDDRace, you can search it in game by gametype 'iDDRace'. Short description of chat commands:
/d - type it to spawn your dummy. Your dummy will look like you and have name '[D] Your name'.
If your dummy is already spawned, /d command will teleport it to you.
/dc or /ds -[dummy change or dummy swap] - swap your tee with your dummy.
/dcm - dummy copies all your movements and actions. Type it to enable/disable this feature.
/dh - dummy hammer, feature for hammerfly. Dummy looks up and hits the air with hammer. Type it to enable/disable this feature.
/dhf - dummy hammerfly, more smart feature. Dummy looks only at you and hits you (and only you) if you are in hammer attack range.
/cd - control dummy. You go to /pause mode and can control your dummy from spectators (walk, hook, shoot, etc.)

Also, we have a trailer^^
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWH4YPXzFBk

So, all these features I'm going to add to ddnet, if you like it.

[Broken]

would make copyfly map work xD

[Fifi]

Please, write you opinion.

First of all, I have to say that iDDRace is a nice mod and I really enjoyed the ability to play maps alone, before I get the DDNet Client. Thank you for this countless hours of fun and easier learning. ^^

I think the idea of adding this functionality to DDNet is nice, but I'm not sure if client dummies aren't sufficient.
There's also the problem of cheating. I guess the bug of magic unfreeze, when 2 tees are in one place, and the bug of moving in freeze, by making movement spam when switching to dummy, are fixed (though we should check it, because I'm only guessing from how old that bugs are) - but I'm worried that there could be more bugs, which could be used to rescue tees from freeze and cheat parts.
I guess I saw this on some server a few weeks ago - if you get some speed and change to dummy, it gets your tee's velocity and can move, even if it's frozen.
I'm also not sure if dummy maps are prepared for server-side dummies, so they can't be cheated somehow, and how the rescue mode would affect dummies - as far as I remember, it caused a lot of mess and could fail somebody or give him the ability to cheat map.

So, with that in mind, my opinion is that we should merge iDDRace to DDNet, but we should disable it on official DDNet servers - unless we'll be 100% sure that players can't cheat using it (I'm also a bit worried about taking up slots and using more resources to calculate dummies).

Btw. Can your dummies copy emotes, &c. now? I wasn't playing on iDDRace for a while. There's also a problem that we have some new features - tune layer, walljump, refill jumps (maybe some more, which I've forgot).

[Vasten100]

I just know 1thing about this mod, you can get easily an 2 second time with 1 bind (i thought bind /ds and /spec on the same key) and you can place your dummy everywhere on the map. I dont know if this geht fixed, so i beter ask you

It would be nice to have this feature, but i think the maps aren't made for the feature (and i would deactivate the teleport feature :/)

[kamillentee]

Yes I think its a good idea to make iDDNet dummies. I see some advantages of serverside dummies but I'm nevertheless with Fifi to deactivate them on ddnet.

+ very useful to fix dcf (dummycopyfly) maps
+ It looks like DDNet is the new ddrace base. We've rescue now in ddnet why not iddrace. It would reduce the useful ddrace mods which are needed in teeworlds. And people could use ddnetfeatures in other ddnetmods.
+if I remember right there was a suggestion by someone in the forum to have dummies just for one part (e.g. rocketfly). That could be possible with tunezones then. You get a dummy in a tunezone and after the zone you loose it again.

As mentioned by Fifi there were some bugs in iddrace. They should be fixed at first.
And I don't know if the very important bug is fixed. I remember it was possible to cheat to whatever place you want.

[milk]

I agree with Vasten100. This feature may break gameplay on many maps. But besides It's a good mod I remember from old days.

[shahan]

Thank you all for your replies.

About 3 years ago we had about 4-5 DDRace servers with shared ranks. Since we added dummies, stats were disturbed with cheated time (like 'finished in 0.02 sec') . I don't want this story to repeat with DDNet, that's why I can suggest my solution:
- on DDNet servers could be enabled only those chat commands, that allows to use dummy as you do it with client's dummy feature (dcm, cd, dhf, dh), so no teleports.
- on DDNet servers commands such as /d and /dc could be enabled only for special maps. For example, iDDRace trailer was prepared for iDDRace tournament, where only /dc was enabled.
- on other servers (selfhosted, or [iPod] sponsored servers) all iDDRace features can be enabled, so you will enjoy both iDDRace and DDNet.

P.S. Thank you all for bug reports, I'll try my best to avoid them in next versions.
P.P.S. If anybody wants to participate in merging, here you are, the full iddrace patch (based on greyfox's ddrace with eeeee's 64 slots): https://github.com/Shahan/teeworlds/com ... ace64_test

[Fifi]

I'm a bit worried about enabling server-side dummies everywhere on DDNet, because even without teleport there might be some unintended cheats we didn't thought about. :c For example the three cheats I talked about earlier:

I guess the bug of magic unfreeze, when 2 tees are in one place, and the bug of moving in freeze, by making movement spam when switching to dummy, are fixed (though we should check it, because I'm only guessing from how old that bugs are) - but I'm worried that there could be more bugs, which could be used to rescue tees from freeze and cheat parts.

Also, I guess I saw this on some server a few weeks ago - if you get some speed and change to dummy, it gets your tee's velocity and can move, even if it's frozen.
I'm also not sure if dummy maps are prepared for server-side dummies, so they can't be cheated somehow, and how the rescue mode would affect dummies - as far as I remember, it caused a lot of mess and could fail somebody or give him the ability to cheat map.

There's also a problem if it's fair to give players the ability to call dummy everywhere, because without it somebody could fail a race if he put a player in wrong place - and with dummies he can easily cheat it by creating a new one. It's also faster to do some parts only with only one player and without waiting, so the dummy players could get unplanned advantage. It might also be possible to somehow cheat using dummy spawn, but I'm not sure yet how.

So... I think we should create a special tune to enable dummies in certain parts or in the whole map (copyfly?), because it would be really useful ^^, but we shouldn't enable them on DDNet (unless they'll be working in the same way as DDNet Client ones, being possible to call only at spawn - but even that worries me a bit, because we may not be able to predict every cheat).

[Soreu]

That's why they could be simply enabled per map cfg file, so no problem for old maps, and another features for new ones...

[east]

I really dislike the idea of adding another dummy feature.

@Shahan
First of all the advantages you mention aren't really promising:

What advantages do I see?
[...]
+ You don't need to stress your connection with second client. (in DDNet client dummy counts as a connected player too, so it eats twice more traffic).

The Teeworlds network engine is optimized really well and quite low-bandwidth. Basically you cannot stress your home-link using Teeworlds (and a proper modification).

+ NO LAGS. Really, your dummy will live on the server, so it doesn't depend on your ping and PC mood

This actually doesn't make sense. You said iDDRace dummys are inactive, so a lagg wouldn't be noticable anyway. And if the dummy is copying your movements and your connections gets unstable, the dummy will copy the next failure move you make due to the lagg.

+ You don't need to update your client.

The Client updates are really important for DDNet. That's the only way to fix ongoing security issues and bugs. Although you won't see many changes on top.

Furthermore adding server-side dummies is a deep interference into the servercore which will (at the beginning) cause bugs and security issues. Not to mention how hard it is to maintain, the current codebase already is extremely hacky.